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DANIEL:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Daniel James, this is 7am.

When Cathy McGowan won her seat of Indi as an independent in 2013, it sent shockwaves through the political establishment. What was supposed to be a safe liberal seat was no longer safe.

Back then, she was one of only two independents in the House of Representatives.

Now, heading into the 2025 election, the movement she helped ignite is in full force. Across the country, a third of electorates are organising to put forward a community backed independent.

Today, former federal MP Cathy McGowan on who within the major parties should be worried about holding onto their seats, and if there’s such a thing as too many independents in the Parliament.

It’s Wednesday, January 15.

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DANIEL:

Cathy, as we head towards the election. Can you give me a sense of how big the community independent movement is right now? How many candidates are running across the country?

CATHY:

It's really hard to be exact because it's an organic movement and there's no one controlling at all. But what I do know is in July last year, the Community Independent Project hosted an online convention. And there was representatives from 51 electorates at that convention and a thousand people. There’s 151 electorates in Australia so basically a third of the electorates participated in that convention. So the numbers of people involved are big and they're influential.

DANIEL:

What makes an electorate ripe for a campaign from an independent?

CATHY:

Yeah. So there's a couple of things that need to happen. One is you've got to have a community group so that's leaders who are going to do the work because it is work. So it doesn't really matter who the leaders are, but they've got to be people in the electorate with a passion for community and they've got to have enough expertise in bringing community together. So that's really important.

And then the second thing is within that leadership group, but a bit wider, a want for something different, something better. Now, if you haven't got that want for something better, it's really hard to build a momentum. But that's not we're not short of that.

In Australia. We have got a huge numbers of electorates where people are thinking they're not getting what they want. They want a better choice and they look at what happens in electorates like Indi or Warringah and they say, We want some of that. So there's no shortage of people thinking that the two party system is not working for them and that maybe this option could actually give them better outcomes.

DANIEL:

You really kicked off the independent movement that we're seeing now when you ran in 2013, coming up against the two major political parties is a very daunting thing. What advice do you give independent candidates on how to cut through when coming up against these giant entities?

CATHY:

So in 2013, in Indi, We were an isolated rural community. Everyone forgot us. We were taken for granted as a Coalition seat. So our group of community leaders said it's actually about the community being at the centre of politics. And that if you voted for me, this is what you'd get. You’d actually get a representative who represented you. I wasn't the answer to all their problems, but I would represent them and I would always put my community first.

Audio Excerpt - News Reporter:

“59 year old Cathy McGowan is a community leader with a long track record in these parts. She's an independent who's for marriage equality, is embarrassed by the national debate on asylum seekers and talks about climate change to farmers.“

CATHY:

In reality it is, of course you're going up against the big parties with a lot of money. But a representative that the community wants has got so much going for it. It's got a natural momentum. But there was another side as well, we were able to have fun. And I don't say this lightly. The major parties, it's so heavy and it's so angsty and they're always arguing with each other and they are often very nasty.

Whereas in the community independents movement, that's not the way communities work. So given a choice of do you want to have fun and have pizza nights and get to know your neighbours and go out door knocking and get to know your community and be trained in how to do it and have an opportunity for leadership and have real impact versus being told what to do by Melbourne or Sydney or Brisbane. You know, like it was a no brainer.

So in one way, ignoring your opposition, ignoring the competition and just getting ahead with it was the real skill. And that's counterintuitive, isn't it? But it really did feel to me. And the more we went out, and the more we were the change, and the more we brought people together, and the more we built community, the quicker the movement grew. And that's what we're seeing happening around the country now, is that, community love being engaged. They love belonging. They love the offer and the hope.

DANIEL:

Well, let's not ignore them for for a second. Which major party politicians should be most worried about independents this year?

CATHY:

I actually think the whole system needs to worry, quite frankly. When I first got elected, I can remember just talking to the organisers of that Liberal Party at the time and said, guys, you should have seen this coming. You should see the drop off in your vote. You should say that you haven't got a grassroots connection. You should say that when you have the conferences, you're not actually addressing the issues that are real to people. So that disengagement from the parties is really obvious. And unless they can fix their model up by really, really looking at not only the issues but the organising, I can't see them ever going back to how they were in the 50s and 60s.

DANIEL:

So, so given that, I mean we saw people like Josh Frydenberg and Tim Wilson lose out in the last election. Is there anyone in your mind that could meet a similar fate?

CATHY:

Yeah I think there are three electorates that I'm watching really closely. So the one of Wannon in western Victoria, their incumbent is Dan Tehan. Now Dan is a lovely man, a good person, but he's really caught up in being a member of his party and the inability of that party to address the regional problems that Australia is facing.

So Alex Dyson there.

Audio Excerpt - Alex Dyson:

“I could just keep up this grassroots independent campaign focusing on what this community actually wants like better roads, shorter waitlists when it comes to aged care and child care.”

CATHY:

So a very strong candidate and this is the third time he's running. I think he's in with a chance. The other one is up in Bradfield in northern Sydney. Now that was Paul Fletcher, but he's stepping down. Nic Boele is there and she's running a very strong campaign.

Audio Excerpt - Nic Boele’s Campaign:

“She’s a woman, independent, vote for Boele with me. No distraction from climate action, vote for Boele with me.”

CATHY:

The third seat that I think is within a real strong contention is in Cowper New South Wales, Caz Heise.

Audio Excerpt - Caz Heise:

“I don’t work for a party, I’m not beholden to party politics. I’m beholden to the community.”

CATHY:

So Cowper It's based around Port Macquarie and Coffs Harbour. So she ran last time as well and did very well. Now that's a National Party seat. Again, the demographics of that seat have changed and the sense that the community could have something better for itself is very strong.

Now I say those three because each of those candidates have run before and they've built a base, got very sophisticated at community engagement. Now, that's not to say that there are no other electorates that have got good campaigns. There are, but I think those three are really ones to watch.

DANIEL:

After the break - a warning for the major parties.

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DANIEL:

Cathy, a lot has been said on this program and elsewhere about how we're heading towards a hung parliament where independents will have a lot of power. What's to stop a certain level of chaos going along with that amount of power?

CATHY:

That's often what people say. And the people who put that out is that two party opposition is better the two parties, so it's their vested interest to keep it that competition. And if you've got the closer numbers in Parliament, then you actually have to negotiate. And if you're negotiating with someone who actually represents their community, they are going to negotiate from a much, much tougher position than someone who just represents a party and they're safe in their job because they've got party endorsement. So I actually like the idea where the numbers are a lot closer where the majority has to actually work with the crossbench to get better legislation. I just absolutely think it's in our national interest.

And just I'll just give you one example. One of the issues I've been following closely is the gambling reform.

Audio Excerpt - News Reporter:

“The prime Minister is under pressure to enact a total ban on gambling advertising. With the crossbenchers accusing Labor of shying away from meaningful reform.”

CATHY:

And the current government said, well, we're not going to back the recommendations of the committee. And the crossbench said, well, we've all worked really closely. The committee system has come up with this. We think you should back getting rid of gambling on TV at certain times.

Audio Excerpt - Zoe Daniel:

“I say just ban it. Ban gambling advertising on television full stop. Get rid of it.”

Audio Excerpt - David Pocock:

“80% of Australians want this and we have a government that doesn’t have the guts to actually stand up to the gambling industry.”

Audio Excerpt - Jacqui Lambie:

“So just do it. Show some god damn courage for once in your lives for the future of our children.”

CATHY:

So I think when those sorts of debates happen, we really should be paying attention because those community independents are actually reflecting their community push. Whereas I suspect the government has got other interests at play there.

But I do say to people, listen carefully. When someone says it's going to be chaos, that's a two party line and it doesn't actually represent the reality of our lived experience. This country works very, very well with parliaments that are well balanced.

DANIEL:

How many independents is too many?

CATHY:

Oh, it's the calibre of the community representatives. Like it's a question like how many National Party people are too many?

DANIEL:

I refuse to answer that.

CATHY:

Yeah, it's the calibre. And then I would say the strong members of Parliament, whichever place they come from, are people of courage who commit to represent their communities and do what's right. And I don't think we've got nearly enough, quite frankly. I would like to see a lot more debate and a lot more constructive, I suppose, ways forward.

But there’s also something else about it. It’s not only this election. The movement's not going to go away. And as I've referred to the three candidates I hope, who get elected to the crossbench or ran at the last election. So maybe there's 30 candidates running. Some will get out, but they'll be running at the next election and the next election. So what in fact is the impact of this foundational work. It's really hard to tie down, but it's also really closely linked with how the major parties respond. If the major parties continue to ignore it and go about their way, then that will have huge repercussions on how the parliaments work in the future.

DANIEL:

Cathy McGowan, thank you so much for your time.

CATHY:

You're welcome. Good morning, everybody.

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DANIEL:

Also in the news today,

Lawyers for the family of an Australian pilot facing extradition to the United States have launched a legal challenge in the Federal Court.

Daniel Duggan, an Australian citizen and former US Marines Pilot, is due to face charges for allegedly training Chinese pilots.

Duggan was due to be extradited by February, after the commonwealth government agreed to surrender the 56-year-old to the US, but that will be paused until a judicial review is finalised.

And, the Victoria Police chief commissioner says an ‘alarming’ number of Victoria police members have been investigated for alleged sex crimes and family violence.

Figures released by the force show a total of 683 Police officers and public servants were investigated between January 2019 and June 2024 with alleged offences taking place both on and off duty.

I’m Daniel James. This is 7am. Thanks for listening.

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