Audio excerpt — Elon Musk:

“Thanks for having me. It's great to see you guys.”

Audio excerpt — Kara Swisher:

“Thank you for coming. I really appreciate it. You kept your promise, which was nice. I think you were drunk when you promised me but that's okay. I'll take it.”

RUBY:

That’s veteran tech journalist Kara Swisher, in one of many conversations she’s had with Elon Musk, public and private, over the years.

Audio excerpt — Kara Swisher:

“Well, you'll be a good king. Thank you, Elon Musk.”

RUBY:

Nowadays, they don’t talk.

Elon Musk is, of course, in the process of dismantling US government spending as the head of the new “Department of Government Efficiency”, or DOGE.

Audio excerpt — News Host:

“Unelected billionaire Elon Musk is taking a sledgehammer to the federal government whose reports that secrecy is becoming a defining trait of Musk's DOGE.”

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RUBY:

And Kara Swisher says the techno dictatorship he’s building with Trump’s blessing is just the beginning.

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ruby Jones. This is 7am.

Today author of Burn Book Kara Swisher, on what Elon Musk wants and how he got it.

It’s Tuesday, February 11.

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RUBY:

So Kara, you’ve known Elon Musk for a very long time. He was one of many tech bros who you reported on and talked to regularly. And he was just like a lot of them. He was ambitious and he was liberal. He supported Obama when he was in office. But then, during the pandemic, Musk really changed. Tell me about it.

KARA:

Yeah, we were actually talking during the first Trump administration when he went to that meeting with Trump in Trump Tower. He's the one that confirmed it to me, actually, that he was going and it was happening.

Audio excerpt — News Reporter:

“A senior official on the Trump transfer team who told me that Elon Musk arrived shortly ago.”

Audio excerpt — Elon Musk:

“Elon Musk, CEO of SpaceX and Tesla: building rockets and cars and solar stuff in the US.”

KARA:

And he was hoping to change Trump's mind on especially immigration and climate change.

Audio excerpt — Elon Musk:

“I think it’s really important that people demonstrate to governments around the world that they care about climate change.”

Audio excerpt — Stephen Colbert:

“Are you sincerely trying to save the world?”

Audio excerpt — Elon Musk:

“Well I'm trying to do good things, yeah.”

Audio excerpt — Stephen Colbert:

“But you’re trying to do good things and you’re a billionaire.”

KARA:

He was also very interested in protecting gay and lesbians, and trans people, and he certainly isn't now. Everything he was very interested in he shifted on pretty dramatically. And I don't know why. I think there's a combination of his personal life. He had some issues with his trans daughter - all his issues not hers. She’s wonderful. I think he had Covid, sort of, radicalised him in a weird way because they were shutting down some factories. He felt that Tesla was critical, its survival was critical to the future of the human race, which he'd said on more than one occasion to me. I think he thought he got really sort of to go down that ‘dank’ hole online. That was problematic. That changes you a little bit. I think he also, you know, The Wall Street Journal's written about his use of ketamine. I think that disassociated him quite a bit. And then becoming that wealthy sort of makes you into a megalomaniac no matter how you slice it. You have to be a pretty fantastic person to keep up with that kind of adoration and idolatry, really.

RUBY:

I mean, when you talk about the types of things that Elon Musk began talking about and tweeting about, you know, starting with the questioning of the pandemic and then, you know, moving on to many other things, I think we're at, you know, great replacement theory now. I suppose my question for you is, to what extent do you think that he believes everything he posts or is he sort of stirring outrage to to distract people? Where does he fall on that?

KARA:

Does it matter? It doesn't matter what he believes. I mean, is it better if he believes it? It's all heinous. It's like, whether he's anti-immigrant or anti trans people or anti legal. You know, I don't know that it matters whether he thinks. I think he's a contrarian at heart no matter what. I think this is just the thing that he wants to use to get to power. And so he takes it to a huge extreme, I guess.

RUBY:

Yeah, I guess it's a question of whether he is actually ideological about all of this or whether, you know, that kind of idea that you hear around Alt-Right internet culture: is this actually a joke?

KARA:

It could be. He thinks everything's a joke. He thinks everything's a... he used to love ‘dank’ memes.

Audio excerpt — Elon Musk:

“I'll say what I want to say qnd if the consequence of that is losing money, so be it.”

KARA:

So maybe it's the ultimate joke but it has real world implications. I mean, but it's all negative and cruel and belittling of people and it's all lawbreaking. It's really, a lot of it is, like, just running through the government without any kind of garb or else. You know, he knows he can do it because he has the history of doing it. This is a man who blows up rockets in order to get to the right rocket. And he's willing to do that. And other people either can't, like NASA, or won't. And so he's very risk tolerant, I think, you know. And now he thinks he knows better, which he doesn't.

RUBY:

Well, let's talk about what he's been doing over the past few weeks with his Department of Government Efficiency taking on this task of, quote, uncovering fraud. But what he is doing is he's shut down the US Agency for International Development. And then there's the Treasury issue, which has just been blocked. But what have you been thinking as you have watched that unfold?

KARA:

I've been thinking our government, we're in the middle of a constitutional crisis, and a very severe one. And now today, they're attacking the judiciary. I think they're not going to enforce what the judiciary decides. And then what happens if the judiciary rules against Trump and then the US Marshal Service doesn't do anything about it because it's under the purview of the Justice Department here. So we're in the middle of a real constitutional crisis.

RUBY:

Coming up after the break - the three factors that have led America to where it is today and one of them is Australian.

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RUBY:

Kara, Elon Musk is right now in an incredibly powerful position,with Trump’s backing. So what do you think he is going to do with it? How do you think he sees governance and the way the US should be run?

KARA:

He wants it to be run like a techno authoritarian, whatever phrase you want to use, it's dictatorship, really. I don't know what else to say, techno dictatorship. What they say is best and what they want is best. And they would like there be no rules and everyone gets out of their way and they get to do what they want. And that said, you know, these free speech warriors regularly censor people. You know, regularly censor people, throw people off depending on what they think. So that sounds like a dictatorship to me.

RUBY:

And what is your read on the dynamic between Musk and Trump and how long that partnership is going to last?

KARA:

Well, it's in Musk's interest to keep it going, so he'll probably pretend he's a beta to Trump's alpha for as long as he can. He's not, but he'll pretend he is to keep Trump happy. I mean, you've got an elderly man who likes power and money, and he has someone else to carry out the cudgel part, right? Someone else who doesn't mind getting his hands dirty. Trump never gets his hands dirty, if you notice, right? And so it's a perfect relationship in that regard. So, I thought at first they might fight, that it wouldn't last. But now I see it's in their interest to do so and they're not unsimilar.

RUBY:

No, they seem quite similar in a lot of ways.

KARA:

They’re overly sensitive, grandiose liars, hypocrites. But, you know, I think they have a great partnership in that regard and they will continue to do it. Musk needs the power that the President does have, in terms of getting into the government and getting his hands in there with all that data, which he would dearly love to get on Grok, I assume. And then the President needs the money that he can use to threaten all those congresspeople who won't have a backbone build. They'll break their backs with the money and they'll get them out of office.

RUBY:

And this partnership between Trump and Musk is the defining partnership of the moment. But he was not the only tech CEO at the inauguration, Mark Zuckerberg was there. So was Sam Altman. So what do you think is going to happen as these other relationships with Trump play out?

KARA:

Acquiescent Quislings? I don't know. What can we call them? I mean, they have interests and everyone has a different level. I don't think Tim Cook or Sam Altman really wanted to be there, I don't think they had a choice, right. I think they're not in line with the Trump administration, but they will say things that will get them out of harm's way, just like Travis Kelce did for the Super Bowl. He's like, I'm glad he's there. He's not glad he's there. But he said he's glad he's there because he has to, right. He can't, like, pick a fight with the President. Others are a little more in line with them, like Mark Zuckerberg, who was like, I called him a sad weathervane. He'll do whatever it takes to push forward Meta as a company so they'll do whatever it takes. And Jeff Bezos, I think, kind of likes it, and he wants to get into space. And so he's got a last time round Trump attacked him all the time and he doesn't have a taste for that anymore. So he really wants to be in the room. The others are just like, there's nothing I can do. I have to go along with these people, these thugs.

RUBY:

Is there anyone in Silicon Valley likely to push back against Trump?

KARA:

There has been. Bill Gates of all people, has pushed back very politely, you know, but he has in some fashion saying he thinks all this is nuts. Reid Hoffman has funded enormous challenges to Trump, including paying for Eugene Carroll's legal case. But I think he's nervous. I just had him on my podcast and I think the man has a go bag. I'm sure that man has to go bag. Like, where's he going to go? Australia? I guess. I don't know. Somewhere. He's got a private plane. He'll be fine probably.

RUBY:

And from reading your book, I mean, it's clear that you've been really excited at times by, you know, the innovation of Silicon Valley and you've been there from the get go. But given, you know, where we are now, where it's taken us to this moment where someone like Elon Musk can take over the federal government, I mean, how do you now reflect on where that innovation has has taken us?

KARA:

Well, my book was about that, my book was about where this was at. And, you know, I think the end of my book, I'm like, you better fucking get ready for these people because they're taking over everything. And so I was warning people and at the time everyone's like, “Kara's too hard on them”. I'm like, I'm not hard enough. Like, I don't just… this was inevitable, what they're doing. And I didn't... I called them not benign. These are not benign people. I think the protests in the streets is where we're headed. And I think eventually it'll be so chaotic and the economy will be affected that it'll be too much. But the world is not enough. I think they're moving around the world. Look at him. I'm sure to be backing right wing people in Australia. Do you think Rupert Murdoch was scary? Welcome to the new world. That Murdoch looks like an avuncular old man right now at this point, but really, truly he does. I mean, he's heralded in this whole era, but that's another issue altogether.

RUBY:

I mean, what do you think his responsibility is here?

KARA:

All of it, I think between in this country, gerrymandering, Rupert Murdoch and social media, has led us to where we are today. But it's, you know, they're going to move to Australia. They're already in Germany trying to press the AfD. And if you're a right winger, great, you should be thrilled. But let me just tell you, they're coming for you too. They are. This is what these people do. They eat themselves alive. And so, you know, they'll take it global. They’ll take it global.

RUBY:

And Kara, in your recent book you do lay out the threat of Silicon Valley and where this drive to power could lead. I want to know a bit more about how you feel about that now and whether it's a sense of frustration or weariness around having made that warning and then watched it come true?

KARA:

Well, you know, you caught me on a bad day, in a bad day because Elon attacked me on Twitter and so I got a lot of death threats. That was nice. That was a nice Sunday for me with my kids. I just get a lot of, like, really nasty stuff when it comes in. He accused me of threatening those pricks that are running around at his behest and because I call them pricks, but they. They're the little pricks. And so it was really... you got me a bad day. But I wish I was more hopeful. I feel terrible that I was correct. You know, I think, I feel terrible that I wasn't on to it sooner, I guess. I feel like a lot of people give me a hard time for interviewing these people as if they were normal, well they were normal for a long time, right? And so I didn't think they would take this sort of repulsive turn, although maybe I should have anticipated it much sooner, I suspect. But no, I don't like right now having to defend democracy on a daily basis. I wish I could talk about cool stuff to cure cancer and technology that will help us go to Mars. I think going to Mars is important. I want to talk about the really cool elements of it. Instead, we're talking about this because this is what matters right now. At one point he called and said my heart was seething with hate and I got a whole pile of crap then. My heart’s not seething with hate. It's not seething love for him, but that's different. Every accusation is a confession. That's what I see with these people and him in particular.

RUBY:

Yeah, it also sounds like he's trying to shut you up.

KARA:

Yes, that's correct. It's not working, but some day it will, maybe. Good luck.

RUBY:

Well, I hope not. Kara, thank you for your time.

KARA:

All right. Thank you so much.

RUBY:

Kara Swisher will be at Adelaide Writers Week on the 4th March, in Sydney at the All About Women festival on the 5th March and at The Wheeler Centre in Melbourne on the 6th March.

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RUBY:

Also in the news...

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese says he will use a scheduled call to President Trump to make the case for Australia to be exempt from US steel and aluminium tariffs, as it was during the first Trump presidency.

According to President Trump, the 25% tariff on steel and aluminium would take effect immediately and apply to every country. The announcement wiped 15 billion dollars from the ASX on Monday morning.

And,

Independent Senator Lidia Thorpe has criticised the latest Closing The Gap report, labelling it a ‘year of betrayal’.

Thorpe accused the government of intentionally widening the gap with harsher bail laws increasing the number of children held on remand.

The latest instalment of the Closing The Gap report found that only 5 of the 19 targets are on track to be met by 2031. Meanwhile rates of suicide and incarceration among Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders have grown.

I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am. Thanks for listening.

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