[Theme Music Starts]

DANIEL:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Daniel James. This is 7am.

It sounds like a bad dream. You’re on stage, you say something about Joe Rogan, and suddenly you’re the subject of a global pile-on led by the world’s richest man, Elon Musk.

But this is what the chair of the ABC Kim Williams recently endured, after comments he made at the National Press Club.

Audio Excerpt - Kim Williams:

“I think people like Mr. Rogan prey on people's vulnerabilities. They prey on fear. They prey on anxiety.”

But Williams wasn’t there to talk about Rogan. He was there to defend the ABC - an institution still dealing with a decade of cuts, staff departures and questions about management’s ability to guide the national broadcaster in an age of lies designed to sow division.

Today, Kim Williams on the ABC’s challenges and why he insists he’s in the right job.

It’s Monday, December 9.

[Theme Music Ends]

[Advertisement]

DANIEL:

Kim, thanks so much for joining us.

KIM:

Pleasure, Daniel.

DANIEL:

You've had a deep interest in the ABC for such a long time, like so many Australians, but one would argue that your interest has been deeper than most. If the ABC is firing on all cylinders, what does that look like?

KIM:

Well, if the ABC is firing on all cylinders, I think it becomes the indispensable ally to being an Australian citizen. It is a useful contributor to your world view. It is a useful participant in your formation of thoughts and ideas and priorities in terms about our nation and its direction. It's a useful barometer of community perception and of community sentiment. And it is a place that is devoted to interrogating and celebrating that which is about Australia and the many audiences and communities that constitute the Australian nation. I think those are the sorts of elements and virtues that the ABC pumping on all cylinders would constitute.

DANIEL:

At a time where people can get their news and their entertainment from anywhere or any one, the ABC is reaching less Australians with the primary driver of that being a decline in ABC News. Do you have an opinion as to why that might be?

KIM:

Well, I don't agree with the question and I don't agree with the underpinning to your question, the ABC is the number one source of news in Australia. ABC Online is getting a weekly audience of around 12 million Australians and to my knowledge, and please feel free to correct me, Daniel, but I don't think anyone else is getting that kind of audience. Now your question may refer to a diminishment in news consumption on the part of Australians. I am not convinced that is correct. I understand a number of people produce material that says news consumption is down. I'm a skeptic about this kind of popular notion of news avoidance and I'm very, very cautious in accepting it as an established fact.

DANIEL:

The decline I was referring to came from the government's website transparency.gov, and this is a direct quote, ABC News web has been the primary driver of overall network decline, with weekly users averaging 7.7 million, which is of course a high number, but that's down by 30% year on year. That's the decline we're talking about, a decline from viewers from the ABC itself.

KIM:

Well, I don't know when that report was published. Certainly from the time of the relaunch of the ABC digital news offering, our numbers are very much higher than that.

DANIEL:

Kim, not long after you started as chair, Managing Director David Anderson announced he was resigning a year into his second term after more than 30 years at the ABC. What does that mean for the sustainability in the way the broadcaster is currently being run?

KIM:

Well, we're in a moment of transition. David has been on some personal leave recently, but he'll be back next week. And I would think David would continue to provide the steady pair of hands that he has provided for an extended period of time over the last six years and as he had provided previously in a variety of different roles at the ABC. We are recruiting a new managing director and I'm confident that we will have an appropriate replacement available for announcement in due course.

DANIEL:

What is thatt period of transition from David as Managing Director to this new managing director meant for the organisation in practice?

KIM:

I think in practice it means that there is a certain degree of caution internally. There are elements of normal anti-body rejection of fresh thinking and new ideas. That's a very institutional response to change. And there are also a lot of people who have high expectations and very real and considerable enthusiasm for fresh thinking. And that's not said in a comment on David at all. Institutions tend to have a deficit of agility. Regrettably, but predictably.

DANIEL:

Yes, I know that from experience. You recently intervened in reversing a decision by the managing director to fold radio into the content division. This is something a managing director would normally be in charge of. We've spoken to quite a few people who say that you are quite an interventionist chair. Are you in the wrong job?

KIM:

No, I'm not in the wrong job. I'm in a very strong role as Chair of the ABC and I am charged with governance responsibilities. Number one, for the efficient operation of the ABC in the service of all Australians. Number two, for protecting and defending the integrity and independence of the ABC. And number three, for having responsibility for the impartiality in the collection and dissemination of news and information according to commonly accepted standards of objective journalism. They are the top three roles described in the ABC Act as the responsibilities of the board of the ABC. I think you'll find that all of my actions are entirely consistent with the good governance principles that are reflected in those things and, of course, the ABC board has the custodianship responsibility for the charter. The charter is in section six of the ABC Act. The responsibilities of the board or in aection eight of the ABC Act.

I can assure you, Daniel, I sleep, metaphorically, with a copy of the act under my pillow.

DANIEL:

I was perusing through it this afternoon and I can't pretend to know one skerrick of it as well as you do, Kim.

After the break - defending change at the ABC

[Advertisement]

DANIEL:

Kim Williams, there’s been a big shake-up with audio at the ABC, particularly in Sydney. You defended management's decision to let Sarah Macdonald go, despite her ratings. There's been an extraordinary reaction to that decision even in Melbourne. People are talking...

KIM:

Daniel, I'm not going to mark any individual inside the ABC report card publicly, so please do not put me in a position where you're expecting me to discuss or describe any individual inside the ABC. I would never do that and I have not in any way made any comment about Sarah Macdonald or any anybody else inside the fabric of the ABC. I think that's wholly inappropriate. What I have defended is the notion of change within any media organisation and I have defended the right and the integrity of management in making changes. The notion that anyone has a job until they no longer want that job, in a public facing role, on publicly owned airwaves, delivering to the broad community of Australians, is simply ridiculous.

DANIEL:

So the question was, what do you attribute the extraordinary reaction to decisions made about those airwavess to? I mean, is that a deep....

KIM:

So you're describing the noise as being extraordinary, rather than it simply being a body of noise.

DANIEL:

Well, I don't think you can ignore your audience.

KIM:

And I don't think one should ever ignore the audience. But I think you need to keep things in perspective, relative to the size of the audience and the size and volume of the noise. All things need to be contextualised, Daniel.

DANIEL:

Sure and I tried to contextualise it. It was a big response to a decision made about taking audio in a new direction. So what is that new direction?

KIM:

Well, I think you'll see that new direction when announcements are made as to fresh announcers and fresh presentation formats that will happen in the course of 2025. They will all obviously be publicly promoted and and presented and I think there'll be pretty enthusiastic responses from the public.

DANIEL:

Are you confident that the audio management team has a strong handle on what the direction for ABC Radio is over the coming years?

KIM:

I am. I'm exceedingly confident in the capability and the creativity that is informing the leadership in audio.

DANIEL:

One of the things that, I think, pretty much every free to air media organisation is struggling with at the moment is trying to attract and retain young listeners and viewers. They tend not to watch free-to-air live. It has knock on effects for the ABC down the track as people graduate from Triple J to Double J to local radio and Radio National beyond. How can the ABC not only get young viewers and listeners back, but how can they retain them?

KIM:

Well, I think the ABC in many ways cannot persist in regarding an ABC environment as being the exclusive environment in which you consume ABC provisioned content. And I think you need to respect the audience and respect the behaviours and respect the preferences of the audience in consuming material in other domains. For example in YouTube or on Tiktok or in Instagram or all of the diverse platforms that now exist and which clearly enjoy a pretty hearty endorsement from the community at large in a widely dispersed way across many, many forms of consumption. Australians own the material and they should have access to it in a wide variety of different environments.

DANIEL:

And finally, Kim, in your very entertaining Press Club address from the other week, you talked about making mistakes, that it happens to us all and it's important to acknowledge them. In your time as chair so far, reflecting on your first 12 months in the role, what mistakes have you made?

KIM:

Well, I've been here for eight months, not 12 months, Daniel. Although thank you for making it seem like 12 months. It feels in some ways like 2 or 3 years, frankly. Look, I don't think it's for me to publicly mark my report card, it's for others to mark that for me. And of course, it being Australia, people do. And they do so in profusion, in sometimes less than generous terms. But I take all criticism on board and process it and respect it and value it.

DANIEL:

And probably the most controversial question of all before I thank you for your time, what's your favourite podcast, Kim?

KIM:

Oh gee, that's a tough, tough, tough question. I would have to say Ezra Klein is my favourite foreign podcast, I think Ezra Klein is that rare beast. He's a publicly accessible, agreeable intellectual and who grazes across a wide thought domain. In terms of Australian podcasts, I'm a big fan of Take Me to Your Leader. I find it a really, really terrific podcast and I never miss a copy. But I'm a very, very big user of podcasts and I graze equally here and and internationally.

DANIEL:

Well, Kim, thank you for coming on our podcast. Thanks for your time.

KIM:

I should say, I think you do a pretty good podcast, too.

DANIEL:

That's all you had to say, Kim. That's all you had to say. Thank you.

KIM:

Okay, bye.

[Theme Music Starts]

DANIEL:

Also in the news today...

A Labor cabinet minister has rejected Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s statement linking a Melbourne synagogue firebombing to Australia’s vote in favour of a UN resolution demanding Israel end its occupation of Palestinian territory.

In a post on X, Netanyahu put blame on what he called the Albanese government’s “extreme anti-Israeli position”.

Employment and Workplace Relations Minister Murray Watt said he "respectfully disagrees", and that the UN resolution was a step towards peace.

And,

Organisers of the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras have voted not to ban NSW Police officers from marching at next year's parade.

Three different proposals were put to the Mardi Gras annual general meeting to either block or limit NSW police officers participation in the parade and all three motions were narrowly defeated.

I’m Daniel James, you've been listening to 7am. We will be back tomorrow.

[Theme Music Ends]