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DANIEL:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Daniel James. This is 7am.

When the latest report on Closing the Gap was released, the results were grim.

Only 5 of the 19 targets are on track and Indigenous incarceration rates are rising. But is the policy itself part of the problem?

Critics like Senator Lidia Thorpe say Closing the Gap hasn’t delivered change and should be scrapped.

Meanwhile, Minister for Indigenous Australians Malarndirri McCarthy has announced hundreds of millions in new spending, including major investments in remote communities and cheaper grocery prices in the Northern Territory.

Today, Minister Malarndirri McCarthy on whether Closing the Gap is still working.

It’s Tuesday, February 25.

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DANIEL:

Minister, welcome to 7am.

MALARNDIRRI:

Hello Daniel, lovely to be here and hello to all your listeners.

DANIEL:

You took on the Indigenous Affairs portfolio in July last year when your predecessor Linda Burnie stepped down. And this was, of course, not long after the country voted resoundingly against a voice to Parliament. What was it like for you to step into that role at that particular moment?

MALARNDIRRI:

Well, it was certainly an absolute honour to be able to step into the role, Daniel, especially when I'd worked so closely with Linda Burnie. It of course was difficult with the outcome of the referendum, but I was fairly realistic in the sense that the Australian people have voted and their decision was no. As disappointing as that might be, we accept the decision. And my role was to actually move us on and forward and to keep reaching out to our communities and our First Nations families and remind ourselves that we're a resilient people. That we've had many disappointments over many centuries and we're still here and we're still very strong. And the first thing I wanted to do when I became Minister was to reach out to my opponents, especially those who were vehemently against the yes vote, to invite them to rise above using Indigenous Affairs as a political football and that was a real focus for me and continues to be.

Audio Excerpt - News Reporter 1:

“...That time of year when you're supposed to hear about how Australia is Closing the Gap between the experiences and livelihoods of Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians. But you'll hear today that only five Closing the Gap targets are on track…”

Audio Excerpt - News Reporter 2:

“One target is to reduce the rate of Indigenous Australians held in incarceration by 15%. Instead, that number is growing and experts say there needs to be greater focus on alternative justice…”

DANIEL:

Minister, most of the Close the Gap targets are not on track. The rate of suicide amongst Indigenous Australians is increasing, the rate of children at out of home care is increasing. More Indigenous people are being sent to prison and Indigenous Australians die well before our time. You've been a member of Parliament in the Territory. You've been a Senator since 2016. You spent time in these communities where these facts and figures are played out in real life. Why aren't we seeing change?

MALARNDIRRI:

We are seeing change, Daniel. We're just not seeing it at the pace that we'd like to see it at. And I do commend the Aboriginal community organisations across the country who are working with me to implement that change. In particular, the Aboriginal community medical services across the country who've led the way in terms of local empowerment, self-determination to try and improve the lives of First Nations families. So we've got, through the Closing the Gap, we have 80 members of the Coalition of Peaks who represent 800 Aboriginal and Torres Strait organisations across the country. That's a phenomenal number. They want the governments of each state and territory and the Commonwealth to move more quickly on assisting with the areas that they have already identified are the problems. Exactly what you've mentioned with the high rates of suicide. So our plan for 2025 is to see more psychologists, Aboriginal-trained psychologists, in that area to be able to assist in subsidising that. We've been able to put out 500 Aboriginal health workers across the country and offer that in traineeships. There are over 300 who've accepted that. We've been able to look at the First Nations Children's Commissioner role and establish that. And that person is going to be very responsible for interacting with state and territories about the high rates of removal of our kids. It's just not good enough.

DANIEL:

What's it like to dedicate your life to this work and see some of these outcomes actually go backwards?

MALARNDIRRI:

I'm a very passionate person in terms of wanting to see the improvement for people whose lives are in poverty, and it largely happens to be First Nations families. But I'm mindful that there are ordinary Australians who are in exactly that same sense of poverty and wanting to rise above the despair. What I've found, Daniel, is a lot of this is working with the people where there are pockets of such goodness and hope and energy and enthusiasm, and I am determined to work with people where I can see we have got the runs on the board. I find often, as I travel across the country, that those people who are achieving, they are not recognised for the work they're doing. And if we can get behind the people who do have the answers, and they are largely our Aboriginal community organisations, largely our Aboriginal elders, they know the answers and the solutions to a lot of these problems and we must get behind them. And that is the approach I take in wanting to improve the lives for First Nations families across Australia.

DANIEL:

Is the disadvantage that Aboriginal people are facing across the country, is that a class issue as much as it is a race issue?

MALARNDIRRI:

Well, it's a poverty issue, isn't it, really? If you look at the issues that people ask for, they want good homes; they want houses to live in; they want to be able to have a job that they can get up and go to and feel respected and that there's dignity in the work that they do and that they're paid at a rate that they can afford to look after their families; that they have long service leaves; superannuation; holiday pay. This is important to me and I have been trying to roll out 1000 jobs in the ranger space, 770 identify positions for First Nation's women. But I want to see through the Remote Jobs Program, Daniel, the rolling out of 3000 jobs. I've been talking to workers in Kanunurra, the East Kimberley and then in central Australia around the town camps, they have been really, really pleased with the rise in their pay and the fact that they have dignity in the workspace and the fact that they can look after their families.

DANIEL:

After the break, why the Minister is spending hundreds of millions of dollars on more police.

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Audio Excerpt - Anthony Albanese:

“So this is about doing better. This funding will deliver essential services for remote communities including policing, women's safety, children's health, education and alcohol harm reduction.”

DANIEL:

Minister, you just announced a big package for remote communities, $842 million, but $205 million of that is earmarked for policing in remote Northern Territory communities. The Territory already has more police per capita than anywhere else in the country. Why do those communities need more police?

MALARNDIRRI:

I would look at that statistic in terms of more policing per capita. What I would say is this, Daniel, that when we have the largest case of family and domestic violence, largely here in the Northern Territory, the one thing I do get when I travel our communities is, where are the police? Where is the support for our women and families? So I beg to differ there in terms of those statistics. And I know that there's been a large injection of police to Alice Springs. We've also had people from the police force in South Australia come up under the call of the Chief Minister of the Northern Territory. So I would say that the safety of women and children is paramount. But at the same time, the Commissioner of Police who, at Garma last year, apologised to First Nations families for the history of the police force relationship with Aboriginal people in the Northern Territory. Now, I trust that that is a beginning, a new beginning, under the Police Commissioner, in terms of wanting to see more Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in the police force, to have a better understanding in terms of the many languages we have. It's an imperfect system and often a system that disappoints. But we cannot give up and we must not give up on wanting to ensure the safety of our families in the Northern Territory.

DANIEL:

What do you think is a good outcome from that investment and why do you think it's a good idea?

MALARNDIRRI:

Well, community policing is something that I think has always been talked about when you do it at the local level, and there are many good examples across the country, not just here in the Northern Territory. When you do have community policing at the local level, where you have Aboriginal community police officers involved, Aboriginal elders involved, working in a constructive way, then they make big differences in our community.

DANIEL:

I guess the concern minister, as sort of pointed out in a recent Productivity Commission report on Closing the Gap, is that there is a rise in the number of Indigenous children being jailed around the country. Are you concerned that more policing will lead to more children being locked up?

MALARNDIRRI:

I'm certainly concerned that we are seeing more youth going into corrections centres across the country. I visited Banksia in Western Australia in Perth to listen to the kids themselves and talk to me. You know, I've requested to go into the corrections here in the Northern Territory. It's important to me to work within our justice system, and the Attorney General, on how we are travelling with the justice reinvestment section, Daniel. I don't want to see the high incarceration rates keep rising, but when you have pieces of legislation in different jurisdictions, especially like here in the Northern Territory, that only have the outcome of prison, it is an incredibly deeply worrying position. Yes, I am worried about that.

DANIEL:

You mentioned the Coalition of Peaks earlier on, which represents Aboriginal organisations around the country, some 800. They've stated that they're concerned that states and territories aren't taking Closing the Gap seriously. Do you agree with that assessment?

MALARNDIRRI:

I had my first meeting with all the Indigenous Affairs Ministers plus the Coalition of Peaks, Daniel, and we met in Perth in November. And I did raise, along with Pat Turner in Perth, that we had to look at the issue of remand and I tasked the Indigenous Affairs Ministers to go back to their cabinets and look at the issue of remand in their jurisdictions. There were too many, and still too many, First Nations families, individuals, youths in our remand, let alone in the corrections centres themselves. So that was one thing. And I would say that I've heard, to answer your question, I've heard what the Coalition of Peaks have said about the state and territory governments, which is why I've now begun my work closely with them.

DANIEL:

So since that meeting though, some states have passed more regressive policy when it comes to youth justice and holding more children in remand. I mean, is that an alarming thing for you to hear as Minister for Indigenous Australians?

MALARNDIRRI:

I'm very aware of the fact that each state and territory parliament makes their laws. What I can do in the purview that I have as Indigenous Affairs Minister is continually remind Indigenous Affairs Ministers of their roles and responsibilities, but at the same time talk to my cabinet colleagues because Indigenous Affairs and the issue of Closing the Gap isn't just on Indigenous Ministers. This has to be a collective responsibility of every single cabinet in every single parliament of Australia and I'm very determined to make sure that every single cabinet in this country knows that.

DANIEL:

We recently had Senator Lidia Thorpe on the podcast, and she argued that Closing the Gap targets should be scrapped altogether, that they're distractions and that nothing ever changes. What's your response to that?

MALARNDIRRI:

As I said when I first came in as Minister, I invited across the parliament senators and members to join me to work on Closing the Gap. Senator Thorpe's been invited on those three occasions that we've held those meetings and has not attended. So it's disappointing that when there's an opportunity to actually be involved, to work collectively, to put the pressure collectively on others, that that has not occurred. I still encourage Senator Thorpe to do that, but I certainly don't agree with dismissing 800, at least, Aboriginal organisations across this country and their request for us to get this right.

DANIEL:

Minister, thank you so much for your time.

MALARNDIRRI:

Thank you, Daniel.

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DANIEL:

Also in the news today...

Opposition leader Peter Dutton says the Coalition will match Labor’s pledge of an $8.5 billion boost to Medicare should they win the election and revealed where he intends on getting the funds.

At a press conference in Brisbane yesterday, Dutton said he would cut 36,000 jobs from the public service and use the savings to boost Medicare.

The opposition leader expressed skepticism as to whether the plan would improve bulk billing rates.

And,

The messaging app Telegram has been hit with a fine of nearly one million dollars from Australia’s eSafety Commissioner.

The platform failed to answer questions about how it is addressing child abuse and violent extremist material shared on the encrypted messaging app.

Telegram was singled out by ASIO and the AFP for its use by young people looking to access extremist content.

This has been 7am. Thank you for listening.

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