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From Schwartz Media, I’m Daniel James, this is 7am.

Peter Dutton’s announcement last month that he won’t stand in front of the Aboriginal flag got just the kind of reaction he was likely after - talkback minutes, headlines, private agreement from some quarters, outrage from others.

For Professor Marcia Langton it was something else. She’s lived through enough Januaries in this country to know the tactic she was seeing, and put in the context of Peter Dutton’s record on Indigenous affairs, it felt fitting.

She doesn’t want him anywhere near the flag.

Today, Professor Marcia Langton AO on what it would mean for Aboriginal people if Peter Dutton becomes the prime minister.

It’s Monday January 27.

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DANIEL:

Marcia, thanks for coming on 7am.

MARCIA:

Thanks very much for having me, Daniel.

DANIEL:

We're just lived through another Australia Day. Can you describe what it's like to be Aboriginal in January in Australia?

MARCIA:

Well, I found, over some decades now that the level of abuse towards Aboriginal people and me and you know, specifically ramps up during January. I lock my doors and stay inside mainly.

DANIEL:

Right, and so is added the content this year of Australia Day that Peter Dutton’s announcement that he won’t stand in front of the Aboriginal flag. What was your reaction when you heard that?

MARCIA:

A lot of people think that he's coming out as a sort of mini Trump with these kinds of gestures and we're supposed to be terribly upset and offended. But after all what he said about us, especially during the Voice campaign, again, most of it lies. Well, I'd be offended if he stood in front of our flag. I'm not in the least concerned that he won't stand in front of our flag because nothing that he does or says diminishes the fact that our flag is a national flag and that it is being used by Aboriginal people for over 50 years as an emblem of our self esteem, our ancient origins here, our long struggle for civil rights. And of course it references our history.

DANIEL:

So let's talk about that. Can you tell me a little bit about the history of the Aboriginal flag itself?

MARCIA:

It's a very interesting history. So just a little bit about our flag. In very simple terms, the black at the top represents our people. The golden Orb represents a new dawn as it was envisaged back then in the early 70s, when people were imagining that we might have indigenous rights and our civil rights recognised. The red at the bottom of the flag represents the bloodshed, the Aboriginal bloodshed during the Australian wars.

So Harold Thomas, a Northern Territory man, he is one of the members of the Stolen Generations. He was one of several people who were involved in designing an Aboriginal flag. He claimed copyright, whereas the others didn't. As a result of him claiming copyright, he then was able to commercialise that and he issued a number of licenses. And so for over 50 years throughout Australia, Aboriginal people were using the Aboriginal flag, believing that it belonged to everybody. But then a few years ago, people who were flying the flag, they began to receive lawyers' letters demanding payment because Harold Thomas had licensed the flag to several non-Aboriginal commercial entities who were selling the flag to make a profit.

Audio Excerpt - News Reporter:

“Laura Thompson began the Free The Flag campaign when her company Clothing The Gap received a cease and desist order for printing the flag on clothes.”

MARCIA:

And so this came to everybody's attention through the Free the Flag campaign. And of course complaints were made to the Australian Government and the Australian Government set up a parliamentary inquiry. I made a submission to it. One of the outcomes was that the Commonwealth Government under the Scott Morrison government and it was a Cabinet decision and note that Peter Dutton was a member of that cabinet, allocated $20 million to buy from Harold all the rights in the flag. And technically the flag is property of the Commonwealth. And now, as a result of the usual confusion about flags, there's a lot of nonsense being said.

So this is, for instance, what Price had to say in The Australian just a few days ago. The Aboriginal flag is not a national flag. Then she goes on to say if they actually knew something about the Australian flag, they'd understand that Aboriginal people are represented through the Southern Cross.

Well, of course most of that is completely untrue. Some Aboriginal groups hold the Southern Cross to be sacred, but it's not true that Aboriginal people are represented by the Southern Cross in the Australian flag. And it's not true that the Aboriginal flag is not a national flag. Both the Aboriginal flag and the Torres Strait Islander flag are recognised in The Flags Act.

DANIEL:

So just to be clear, the Aboriginal flag is owned by all Australians?

MARCIA:

Yes indeed It’s owned by the Commonwealth on behalf of all Australians. And so to that extent it is a national flag. And Peter Dutton seeks to spike the usual January racism and use any disgusting measure he can to incite hatred against us and to humiliate us and our ancestors. It is deeply offensive.

DANIEL:

Coming up after the break - Peter Dutton’s selective outrage on anti-semitism and racism.

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DANIEL:

Marcia, what have you noticed since the defeat of the voice referendum in terms of changing attitudes towards Aboriginal people, culture and history?

MARCIA:

Well, you know, we have the very obvious examples that we've just talked about. Now Dutton and Price feel completely free to lie about Australian flags, to lie about the contribution of Aboriginal people to the nation and to humiliate us. He’s riding on a resurgence of racism, which he led during the Voice campaign, as did Jacinta Price and Warren Mundine.

And of course this was documented and I was one of the authors of an article in the Lancet citing the extraordinary rise of reports of racism against Aboriginal people to various bodies, including the E-Safety Commissioner, the Australian Human Rights Commission. To the extent that the Australian Government had to offer special funding for mental health support to the thousands of Aboriginal people who were abused and insulted by racists during the campaign.

DANIEL:

How much political mileage do you think Peter Dutton can get out of his approach to Indigenous affairs?

MARCIA:

Well, I think it's a winner for him and this is some problem and you know, I haven't seen much in the Australian media pointing out that this cheap, nasty racist tactic, when Australia needs to pull together and create strong bonds of social cohesion across all members of the Australian community of whatever ethnicity, religion or cultural background. So this is why I find his sudden conversion to being an advocate for Jewish Australians rather strange and hypocritical because he hasn't shown the same support for any other ethnic group apart from his own.

Audio Excerpt - Peter Dutton:

“This is not just an attack on the Jewish community, this is an attack on every Australian and it's the Jews today, who next? And if we look back through the course of history, when good people don't stand up and provide support to those who are in need, then the downward spiral continues.”

MARCIA:

I mean, let's have a look at Dutton's history. He said in 2022 that there'd be a war with China.

Audio Excerpt - Peter Dutton:

“The only way you can preserve peace is to prepare for war and to be strong.”

MARCIA:

And he compared China to Nazi Germany.

Audio Excerpt - Peter Dutton:

“We’re in a period very similar to the 1930s now.”

MARCIA:

This alarmed the Australian Chinese community, but also the fact that he opened up the opportunity for his racist followers to attack Chinese people and they were attacked, as were African Australians. Especially here in Melbourne, he demonised them and he claimed that they terrorised Melbourne so that nobody could go to a restaurant in Melbourne.

Audio Excerpt - Peter Dutton:

“People are scared to go to restaurants of a night time because they feel at home by these gangs, home invasions and cars are stolen and now we just need to call it what it is. Of course it's African gang violence.”

MARCIA:

And of course we all started going to restaurants to prove that this was utter nonsense. He singled out Lebanese Australians.

Audio Excerpt - Peter Dutton:

“The reality is that Malcolm Fraser did make mistakes in bringing some people in in the 1970s, and we're seeing that today.”

MARCIA:

Saying that it was a mistake to take them in as refugees.

DANIEL:

I mean his approach to anti Semitism is a very strong one and a just one, but there doesn't seem to be any of that when it comes to other groups across the community. What do you put that down to?

MARCIA:

You know, he grew up in Bjelke-Petersen's Queensland. You know, Bjelke-Petersen's Queensland was essentially an apartheid state. People don't like that being said. But it was not until 1984 when legislation was amended in Queensland that the, you know, the separatist policies towards Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people were finally ended. And that is very late in Australia's history. It was the last removal of deliberately racist and separatist legislation. And I grew up in Queensland so I know a lot about this.

The whole body of attitudes and beliefs that supported that regime is the context of Dutton's socialisation. And of course he was a police officer in the Queensland police force. The development of his attitudes towards Aboriginal people growing up in Queensland and serving in the Queensland police force ought to be, I think, more thoroughly examined by the media during his pitch to become prime minister.

DANIEL:

Well, on that note, and finally, Marcia, what would a Peter Dutton prime ministership mean for Aboriginal people?

Audio Excerpt - Peter Dutton:

“We will start with a full audit into spending on Indigenous programs and Indigenous communities. And in indigenous communities where drugs and alcohol are prevalent. We will reintroduce the cashless debit card for working age welfare recipients.”

MARCIA:

This is a Jacinta Price announcement and she has no idea what she's taking on because she's bought into the Facebook racism. You know, Aborigines get billions of dollars and they imagine that, you know, we get that money in our pocket.

Of course that's not the case at all. It's a construct which takes into account the proportion of all Australian funding that would go to Indigenous services in an ideal world. Of course it doesn't reflect reality because we don't actually get all of those services. So it's just a statistical construct. We know that there are Aboriginal communities with no sewerage, no potable water, despite what she says, insufficient housing.

There have been court decisions against the Housing Department in the Northern Territory because of the abysmal state of housing there. So a proper audit of actual services, not fantasy figures, would show that Aboriginal people remain. And I think it's over a third of our population remains severely disadvantaged by government funding. And the outcome is inequity.

Dutton has been a parliamentarian for a very long time, for over 20 years, and he's been a member of several cabinets. I mean, he was in Cabinet when John Howard's government instituted the Northern Territory Emergency Intervention.

During that time by sending in the military to the Northern Territory with no specific purpose other than to terrify Aboriginal people. That's the kind of measure that we can expect from Dutton and from Price, and our social and physical status will deteriorate dramatically very quickly under a Dutton government.

DANIEL:

February is just around the corner. May it be a good February for you Marcia, thank you so much for your time.

MARCIA:

Thank you so much, Daniel.

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DANIEL:

Also in the news today,

Senator Jacinta Nampijinpa Price has been named as the shadow minister for “government efficiency”, in a shadow ministerial shakeup.

The role, similar to the US Department of government efficiency, led by Elon Musk, will be responsible for a “crackdown on wasteful spending”, according to the opposition leader Peter Dutton.

Former immigration minister David Coleman was appointed to the foreign affairs role, beating out deputy leader Sussan Ley.

Ley had been vying for the role and it is party convention for the deputy leader to choose their portfolio.

And, four female Israeli soldiers have been released and returned to Israel after being held hostage by Hamas for 15 months.

In exchange, Israel released 200 Palestinian prisoners from two facilities.

The transfers, which were carried out over the weekend, were the second swap in the first phase of the ceasefire deal.

I'm Daniel James, this is 7am. Thanks for listening.

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