RUBY:

Hi, this is part two of our interview with the journalist McKay Coppins. If you haven’t yet, start by listening to part one: James and Rupert Murdoch’s ‘bitter meltdown’.

One of the cardinal Murdoch family rules is that you must never speak about the family outside the family.

So when journalist McKay Coppins got in touch with James Murdoch last year, he really wasn’t expecting a reply.

But McKay was curious about what would happen to the Murdoch empire when Rupert died, and what it would mean for his youngest son James, who seemed outcast from the family.

What he didn’t yet know was that there was already a secret high stakes legal battle going on and James was ready to talk about it.

Here’s part two of my interview with McKay Coppins.

RUBY:

So, McKay, during the time that you were speaking with James, it emerged that his father, Rupert Murdoch, had mounted this legal challenge that, had it been successful, would have essentially evicted James and his two sisters from the company in Lachlan's favour. What did James say to you about the moment that he found out about that plan?

MCKAY:

Well, it was a pretty dramatic moment, but kind of belied by how it was actually delivered, which was on a Zoom call with Rupert and a number of lawyers and then his various children. And Rupert kind of read robotically from a script that had been prepared for him. Lachlan busied himself at an off -screen laptop. But what was happening was Rupert was essentially telling his kids, “I'm going to disenfranchise all of you except for Lachlan and give him complete control of the empire.” It felt like a betrayal to James.

His own mother had actually been the one who'd insisted on rewriting the family trust back in the 90s to ensure that all four of the oldest children would have an equal say in the companies. The idea was that it would incentivise them to work together. She had seen how Rupert kind of played his kids off each other, how he pitted them against each other. She worried that they would be kind of consumed with a quest for the crown. And she wanted them to find a way to work together. And Rupert's decision in this kind of the twilight of his life to say, actually, forget all that. I'm just going to give this all to my favourite and oldest son, really felt like not just a betrayal of him, but also of their mother's wishes.

RUBY:

And of course, James and his sisters, they contested Rupert's attempts to change the trust and the case made it to court. Can you tell me a bit about the day that it started in Nevada?

MCKAY:

Yeah. So on that day, James and his wife, Katherine and his sisters all pulled up at the courthouse in Reno, Nevada.

Audio excerpt — News Reporter:

“Any comment at all?”

MCKAY:

They walked up about 30 minutes later, Rupert and Lachlan and their team pulled up.

Audio excerpt — News Reporter:

“Mr Murdoch, are you confident of victory? Any comment?”

MCKAY:

They had actually coordinated with each other to ensure that they didn't arrive at the same time because they didn't want the cameras there to capture the hostility that now defined their family. But the thing that James remembers most from that first day in the courthouse was he got to the courtroom and he told me that he had planned to kind of approach the proceedings in the spirit of kind of corporate combat, right? He said, I'm good at that. I know how to act in those settings. But he got into the courtroom and he found that he was surprised by how emotional he was. He said, he just looked across the courtroom at his father and his brother. And these are men that he had known his whole life, whom he had loved, he'd shared all these memories with, and they were now completely estranged from one another, involved in this bitter legal battle. And he said the question he just kept asking himself and has continued to ask himself since is, how did we let it come to this? And I think that that's still a question he hasn't been able to answer.

RUBY:

And at the time, this was all happening behind closed doors. It was secret, but the bulk of the trial record has been leaked. And obviously you've spoken to James at length about what happened in court. What did he say about what it was like to give evidence?

MCKAY:

Well, actually, even before the day in the court, he was deposed. And he said that he sat down across from his father and his father's lawyer. And by this point, he hadn't seen and talked to his father in years. They were fully estranged at this point.

But they sat down for the deposition and the lawyer kind of spent multiple hours just firing these questions at James that were kind of disdainful and withering. They were questions like, have you ever done anything successful on your own? And why don't you take responsibility for your actions? And why didn't you call your father on his 90th birthday? And things like that. And James said he did his best to focus on the lawyer's questions, but he kept looking over at his dad, who just was staring at him kind of inscrutably, and every once in a while would pick up his phone and text questions to the lawyer to ask him. And as you can imagine, just an incredibly bizarre and in his words, twisted experience that he hasn't really been able to forget.

RUBY:

After the break - James’ vision for the future of Fox News.

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RUBY:

So McKay, it does ultimately seem like Rupert believes that the only person who will preserve his empire the way that he imagines it is Lachlan. What did James say about what he thinks should be done to address Fox News' output, specifically? What sense do you have of how he might actually like to change things?

MCKAY:

Yeah, well, it's clear that James does not think Fox News is being operated correctly. He sees it as kind of a blight on his family name, a menace to American democracy. Certainly, he described the Fox News formula as lying to your audience, to juice ratings. What would happen to Fox News if James had his way is an interesting question. He was pretty cautious with me whenever I would ask that question. But one thing he said to me repeatedly was that it's not that Fox News needs to become a liberal network. It's obviously conservative and it would probably stay that way.

But what he sees is a network that's desperately in need of stronger journalistic guardrails. He wants the management there to insist on real editorial standards that would define any other news organisation. He wants a cleaner, healthier internal culture. He wants a company where the talent, the hosts aren't just kind of allowed to say whatever they want on the air, but rather, you know, are trying to be responsible stewards of information and reporting. He believes that you could still have a centre right news network, but one that's just responsible.

Right now, that is not what Fox News is. I should add, though, that I asked this question to Katherine, James's wife, and they're very close. They discuss all these things. She actually said to me at one point that she's not sure Fox News can be reformed at this point. She said it just doesn't have an obvious place in the ecosystem anymore. That's obviously raised a lot of eyebrows since her quote was published, because I think there's a lot of questions about what would happen to this very powerful cable news channel when Rupert dies if James has his way.

RUBY:

And ultimately, Rupert and Lachlan, they lost the case. James and his sisters won.

Audio excerpt — News Reporter:

“With a Nevada court denying the billionaire’s bid to change the family trust and give control to his eldest son, the leaked court ruling stated his attempt to change it was in bad faith”.

RUBY:

So where does that leave the future of the Murdoch media empire right now hanging in the balance?

MCKAY:

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of in a holding pattern, right? Rupert is still alive. He has control of these companies. When he dies, barring a successful appeal, control will be split four ways among James, Lachlan, Elizabeth, and Prudence Murdoch. And, you know, you can read tea leaves. It certainly seems that James and his two older sisters have a very different vision for these companies than Rupert and Lachlan do. But we just don't know what will happen until Rupert is gone.

RUBY:

And what about how this case has left the family and the relationships between the siblings and their father?

MCKAY:

Yeah, I mean, to me, that's kind of what makes this a sad story. Obviously, this is a story with global stakes and consequences. These companies, News Corp and Fox, are incredibly politically influential in, you know, Australia, in the UK, in America. But it's also just at some basic level, a very human story about a family unravelling. And James has spent a lot of his time, his life, frankly, studying dynastic dysfunction. He's read King Lear. He can quote it from memory. He's, you know, studied the classics.

He weaves esoteric facts about fratricidal Roman emperors into casual conversation. And what he told me is that, you know, when you look at all these families throughout history, it's kind of the same patterns repeating over and over again. And what he told me is the real tragedy is that no one in my family seems to have taken those lessons. And I don't know if there's any coming back from this, at least from James's point of view. He feels like this final betrayal from his father seems to be a bridge too far. So I would be surprised if he and his father are able to mend their relationship. But, you know, at least for now, there's still an act of litigation. Rupert and Lachlan are appealing the decision. That could go on for quite a long time.

RUBY:

Okay, thank you so much for your time. It's been fascinating.

MCKAY:

Thank you.

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[Theme Music Starts]

RUBY:

If you enjoyed this episode, you can check out Rupert, the Last Mogul, a podcast series from Schwartz Media where investigative journalist Paddy Manning examines what drove the media’s most dangerous man.

Audio excerpt — News Reporter:

“Play with Rupert too long, you're going to get chopped anyway, everybody gets chopped. That was Rupert, he had to win.”

Audio excerpt — News Reporter:

“It showed how ruthless Rupert was.”

Audio excerpt — News Reporter:

“Rupert Murdoch is totally responsible for Fox News and how it's damaged the United States.”

RUBY:

You can find Rupert, the Last Mogul wherever you listen to podcasts.

And you can read McKay Coppins’ excellent reporting at The Atlantic.com. His article is called Growing Up Murdoch.

I’m Ruby Jones, see you tomorrow.

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