TIM:

Look, the two-party system has made change difficult, but we're seeing a breakdown now of the two-party system, I think.

RUBY:

As a scientist, Tim Flannery says he’s seen climate change kicked around parliament for decades and Australians are already paying for the years of denial, distraction and delay from our politicians.

TIM:

We’ve seen a decade worth of warming just in the past couple of years. Temperatures have been, like, about 1.6 degrees above. So, you know, if we are to deal with that adequately, we need to cut harder and faster than we ever thought about doing before.

[Theme Music Starts]

RUBY:

While the last election sent the major parties a clear message that Australia should act on climate change, he says this election is all about how. And he’s optimistic that this could actually be the last climate election.

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ruby Jones. This is 7am.

Today, chief councillor of the Climate Council Tim Flannery, on the choice Australians are facing between expanding renewables, or repeating the mistakes of the past.

It’s Monday, April 14.

[Theme Music Ends]

RUBY:

So Tim, three years ago, we had Australia's so-called climate election. And at the moment that that election was called, Australia was really an outlier on the global stage when it came to taking real action on the climate crisis. We were not addressing the enormous problem that was confronting us. So how much progress has been made since Labor took power?

TIM:

Look, a lot of progress has been made. We were virtually global pariahs under the Morrison government. Back then, there was hardly any EVs on the road. Today, 10% of car sales are EVs, roughly. We're now at about 40% of the energy that's produced in Eastern Australia is coming from clean sources, you know, wind, solar, and hydro, and that's a record high. It's fantastic. So we've made a lot of progress, but we've got a long way to go.

RUBY:

So with that in mind then, what are Labor offering by way of climate policy should they win this election?

TIM:

Labor is offering a continuation of their 2030 target, which is 82% of electricity from clean sources by 2030. So, you know, by 2028, we should be at least at 70%, according to that policy.

Audio Excerpt - Anthony Albanese:

“The problem at the moment is the upfront cost of a battery is too high for too many people. We’re going to fix that.”

TIM:

They've also just announced a new policy on batteries in communities.

Audio Excerpt - Anthony Albanese:

“With a battery, families can store the free energy generated on a sunny day when no one’s home and use it when they need it.”

TIM:

Which will again help us accelerate that transition from gigantic and polluting fossil fuel plants through to wind solar and batteries. So, you know, they are the positive things that I'm seeing coming out of the Labor Party.

RUBY:

And the Albanese government is still approving new coal mines and oil and gas projects. So, how can that possibly square with a commitment to tackle the climate crisis?

TIM:

Well, it doesn't, is the answer. I'm no fan of some of the compromises that have been made with the fossil fuel industry over the years by various political parties. But the fact is that the politics is the art of compromise. That's what it's about. Otherwise it's warfare. So we have to live in the real world with that. Let's move as fast as we can. Let's take heed of the visionaries among us who think we can move faster and do that. But compromise is always going to be part of the political process. What we need to do globally is to just phase out all of the fossil fuels. I guess the Australian government argument is that, you know, if we stop producing then people just buy it from somewhere else and we lose all influence. That may be true but what Australia really needs to do is engage globally with all of the producers in a way that lets us cut that production of fossil fuels. And that means looking at our own legislation and regulation to make sure that we are not approving new fields and new resources that will simply add to the problem.

RUBY:

Okay, well let's talk about the Coalition's policies going into this election, the major one being nuclear, so building seven nuclear reactors across Australia.

Audio Excerpt - Peter Dutton:

“Our policy is to make sure that we can underpin our economy with a stable energy market for the next 100 years.”

RUBY:

Tell me what you think of the plan.

TIM:

Well, I've got some problems with it. One is the water use that nuclear power entails. So it's about a quarter more than a standard coal-fired power plant. And we've already seen the problems that we have on the Western slopes, where some of these reactors are gonna be placed, with drought. And if we can't keep them cool, they melt down. So you've got to have the water resources, number one. Number two, you know, the Dutton opposition has talked about scaling down the public service. Well, the fact is, if you're going to have nuclear power, you need a massive public service to look into the regulation of that and the safety of that industry. You know, after all, in the US, the EPA over 80% of their employees are dealing with the nuclear industry. 100,000 people. So we've got big problems there in terms of cost and contradiction in policy. I mean, thirdly, and most importantly, if we wait till 2040 for nuclear power with this uncertain technology, we'll be adding about two billion tonnes of CO2 to the atmosphere. And that is totally unacceptable.

RUBY:

So what do you think the real motivation is behind the nuclear plan?

TIM:

Look, I think that this is a delaying tactic, ultimately. People just wanna make another year's profit from their old coal plants or their gas plants regardless of the consequences. And that idea we'd have a nuclear plant by 2040 is almost the best-case scenario. I mean, we don't have a nuclear workforce anymore. We used to, in the 70s and 80s, but they're all retired or dead now. So we've got to recruit new people. We're dealing with an unproven technology. There's not a single small-scale reactor operating on a power grid anywhere that I'm aware of in the world. It's pie in the sky. Rubbish. To stake Australia's energy future which is really the future of the economy on some untested idea like that is appalling. In the same breath, I can say Labor's not doing enough. But I really do think that if we continue to accelerate with the wind and solar deployment and battery deployment that we've been doing for the last three years, this will be the last climate election.

RUBY:

You really think this could be the last climate election?

TIM:

Look, I think, Ruby, this is the critical election in many ways. If Dutton wins this election, we'll see one climate election after the other after the other, and we'll see the lies continue to be propagated way out to 2040 and probably beyond. If we see a continuation of current policy or even an increase in ambition, this will be the last climate election. Because by 2028, we'll be 70% reliant on clean energy rather than fossil fuels on the main grid. Electric cars will be more common. Industry will have transitioned, at least in part, across Australia. And I think at that point, there's no turning back.

RUBY:

After the break – the final frontier of climate denial.

[Advertisement]

RUBY:

So, Tim, can we just take a step back into the past for a moment. For a long time in Australia, we were stuck in the so-called climate wars, and you were in the midst of them, you were heading the Climate Commission. Can you tell me a bit about what it was like when your job became politicised?

TIM:

Well look, as climate commissioner, my job was to report to the government but reach out into the Australian community and just talk to people about the issue of climate change. So I must have met, I don't know, 20,000 Australians face to face over that time with other climate commissioners. From, you know, the coal fields of Queensland through to the inner city town halls of Melbourne and Sydney and it was a great experience. I really, really enjoyed doing it. I came away with my faith really reaffirmed that Australians are generous people, they are willing to listen, they're reasonable people, they're people who believe in a fair go. But at the end of that process, you know, we were sacked by the Abbott government.

Audio Excerpt - News Reporter:

“Tony Abbott has sacked a former Australian of the Year from his government posting and the Coalition has made it clear more public service jobs will go.”

Audio Excerpt - Tony Abbott:

“I’m just not going to get into the whys and wherefores of individual decisions. We respect the integrity of senior members of the public service.”

Audio Excerpt - News Reporter:

“Rupert Murdoch took to twitter to express his delight at the sackings. Great first day by PM Abbott firing top bureaucrats, merging departments and killing carbon tax, he said.”

TIM:

I was very fortunate to be working with a young lady called Amanda McKenzie who was working as our publicist and when we heard we were going to be sacked, she said, well, why should you accept that? She said there's this thing called crowdfunding, you know, and again, I didn't know about crowdfunding. So why don't we give it a go, see if we can crowdfund ourselves back into existence. And we did.

RUBY:

That led to the start of the Climate Council, is that right?

TIM:

Indeed, that’s right. So, you know, what I learned from that is never say die, you know, never accept things which are unreasonable or unjust. Find a way to fight back. And today, I think we probably hire 10 times as many people as were hired by the commission. And we're doing a very effective job.

RUBY:

Yeah, we had a decade or so of public debate that really questioned the science of climate change. Can you talk to me about how climate denial has changed over the years and what it looks like now in 2025?

TIM:

Sure. Look, I think, you know, back when I was climate commissioner, Tony Abbott and others announced that the carbon tax was going to be horrific, that a leg of lamb was going to cost $100.

Audio Excerpt - Tony Abbott:

“Everyone's prices are gonna go up and up and up because that's the nature of a carbon tax.”

TIM:

People have to look back and see those lies for what they are.

Audio Excerpt - News Reporter:

“But do you accept some of the Coalition’s claims have been exaggerations. Roasts aren’t going to cost $100, are they?”

Audio Excerpt - Tony Abbott:

“But they are going to be significantly more expensive and that’s the point.”

TIM:

But it was very difficult because people were willing to lie so profligately and there seemed to be no way to be heard, really. So it was extremely frustrating. It was not unusual to meet people who would just flat out deny that climate change is happening. And you don't see much of that anymore. Even in regional Australia, people acknowledge that the climate is changing. They still, some of them, debate about why. And some say, oh, there's other factors involved, it's not climate change. But even they are decreasing. The number of voices that you hear that from is decreasing.

There's a few who'll say, oh, it's too expensive. And that's the lie that we hear at the moment that it's gonna be too expensive and therefore we better fall back on good old gas and coal or nuclear. So they're the last set of lies that we're dealing with now. There's nowhere else for the climate sceptics to retreat to after that point. So my view is we just keep pushing on, proving them wrong. We've tested some of those ideas, we've found them to be lies, and we can see clearly the way forward now, which is just more wind and solar and batteries.

RUBY:

Tim, thank you so much for your time.

TIM:

It’s a pleasure, thank you.

[Advertisement]

[Theme Music Starts]

RUBY:

Also in the news today...

First home buyers of newly built homes would be able to claim mortgage payments as a tax deduction, under a Coalition government.

Peter Dutton announced the plan at a campaign launch in Western Sydney yesterday.

The scheme would be means taxed incomes of $175,000 for singles and $250,000 for couples. It would be limited to five years and the first $650,000 of a mortgage.

The Coalition estimates that a family on an average income would be about $11,000 a year better off.

And,

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has unveiled a plan to allow people buying their first home to do so with a deposit of 5 per cent.

The federal government would also put $10 billion towards building 100,000 homes exclusively for first home buyers.

Housing minister Clare O’Neil said the measure would stop property investors from competing against young people trying to buy their first home.

I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am. Thanks for listening.

[Theme Music Ends]